All the (relatively) recent hoo-hah about nerfed FMs got me thinking...I know that some of the chaps have plenty of RL experience, but how many of us (even in the whole IL2 community) really know how a WW2 fighter behaves? So I found myself a program which would allow me to measure my own RL experience against a computerised version. This is "Condor", a slightly aged gliding simulator, which allows me to fly an ASK13. Rather disappointingly, I found that the computer gives me merely an impressionistic representation - it feels vaguely familiar, but that is all. Of course that is because I don't actually feel anything at all and the minor/major fluctuations in G which accompany flying give us so much information.
Having said that, it is a fun game, and a nice, calm way to spend some time "in the air". It also models weather to a certain extent, which I find quite interesting (I know, I know - I should get out more...)
Ted
As an aside, I'm reminded of a thread someone started up on the UbiZoo forum. He was surmising that if he were in a B747 and a Flying High incident occurred whereby the pilots became incapacitated, and the cabin crew in desperation asked if anyone aboard had any flying experience, he would put up his hand because of his gameplay in IL2.
I can see it now, the cabin crew would be awed by his many (albeit virtual) flying hours of Spits or 109s or JU88s or whatever and would usher him to the front of the jet where he would calmly take his place, look over the controls/instruments/buttons; and with the confidence borne of the true virtual pilot take control all by himself and save the day.
I got to thinking that if in the unlikely event that I was present at a PGA tournament and the even more unlikely event that Tiger Woods (for some reason or another) was a no-show; and in the even more even more unlikely event that the administrators (in total panic) asked the spectators if anyone played golf; I would put my hand up and confess that I had many hours playing Tiger Woods Pro Golf 2010 on my WII console.
I would be ushered to the tee thingy where I would be handed a golf bat thingy by Tiger's caddy and, although never having played the game for real, would trounce the competitors and win the competition. Much cheering would be heard as I mounted the podium to receive the trophy and the green or yellow or whatever coloured jacket is awarded to the victor in this odd game.
That night porn starlets would enter my hotel room, fawning over of this late 60ish, wrinkled and balding newly crowned superstar.
Sigh.......these are the things dreams are made of.
Only problem is, I don't have a WII console or even the Tiger Woods game.
Playing Devils advocate here, and not that I think that IL2 in any way prepares you for flying a 747. How do you think those chaps that spend 10k building a realistic simpit fora 747 might fare? (at least on having a good chance of being talked through a safe landing)
Having had about 30 minutes hands on time in a tri-star (no-one is allowed to be impressed as I only made one course correction and it wasn't like the other pilots had popped down back to service the WAAFs) I was very much taken with a feeling of WTF does all this shit do? Obviously the yoke pedals and throttles were pretty obvious but I don't think I could have managed to get the gear down or work out where the flaps were etc. Especially whilst have an 'airplane' style flap.
There's always a remote chance, I suppose. But then again there is such a huge difference between sitting at a PC screen wielding a USB joystick and sitting at the controls of a massive, complex, moving, noise-making piece of machinery that I think the brave chappie would be somewhat overwhelmed.
Put it this way, I wouldn't want to be placed in that situation, late 60ish, wrinkled and balding and all.
Better to have Father Ted down the back of the jet issuing last rites to the passengers. They would then presumably have a head start learning to fly with their brand new angels wings. ;D :D ;D
The only a/c I flew IRL which could replicate “some†of the issues relating to FM’s in IL-2 was the electric jet (Aircoach-disguised to protect the innocent!).
In the early days of the first “Aircoachâ€, the software that drives the 3 FCCs (flight control computers) was still very new and although tested to destruction, inevitably resulted in learning from “experiencesâ€! The accident in Basel was probably one of the most publicised: it was pilot error….but induced by a lack of understanding of the software programming in the “landing†mode (below 100feet radio altitude).
I once had an “experience†which again was related to the above and as you say Ted, although the human brain will react to visual, g force etc., it has problems interpolating something created in software that may reverse what you would consider the normal behaviour of an aircraft only equipped with normal control sense and not “corrected†by software induced “correctionsâ€.
This is a brief description of the “interesting†approach incident I had one morning at Gatwick.
- Landing at Gatwick (RW26L) with a severe crosswind from the south was always interesting anyway as the turbulence created by the large hangars on the south side was notorious
- There are as you know two ways to land with a crosswind…the “crab†method (flying level and pointing into wind followed by “kicking-off†the drift in the flare) or the “side-slip†method (wing down into wind 5deg. and displacing the rudder so that the alignment of the a/c is always down the runway heading). It is possible to use both together.
- The “Aircoach†had various levels of FM created by the software and in “Normal Law†(when above 100feet RA) it was quite different to a conventional aircraft in that the computers would input control corrections to prevent any displacement of the a/c attitude from that which the pilot had set. In other words, if you set a side-slip approach with 5deg. of wing-down, without moving the stick, the software would try and maintain that 5deg. angle by input of aileron without you doing anything! So here we are flying down towards the runway with everything fine and dandy…five degrees of slip into wind, some rudder input, and the software with its amazing FM struggling to maintain that condition in the gusts.
- At 100feet radio altitude, the “Normal Law†now changes to “Direct Law†which turns your machine into a conventional a/c with the pilot having to input all control changes and the software taking a backseat. This happens gradually over a period of a few seconds.
- You can probably imagine that the poor old brain is now very confused as up until now you have forced yourself “not†to touch the ailerons as the software has been keeping the wings where you want them.
- Well in the frantic pedalling and stick pushing that followed……I ran out of aileron with the stick hard into wind as I tried to straighten the machine with rudder. With the wing not responding I was forced to boot the rudder in the opposite direction to induce a roll.
- We landed very close to the edge!
- There were changes made to the FM not long after this as a number of reports had indicated changes being necessary. Needless to say, the “crab†method was pronounced the preferable crosswind landing technique in the years that followed.
So I guess you could say that the “Aircoach†is probably as close as you can get to the similarity that we have with flying a machine on a PC and having software and not pilot senses affecting the way you apply control corrections.
Have a look at this video of an “Aircoach†landing in severe conditions when the “operator†suffered “brain oscillations†after the machine went into “Direct Law†below 100feet RA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY)
Does this remind you of the “PIO†(pilot induced oscillations) you inflict sometimes when near the ground in IL-2?
Interesting! Well at least it does not induce a change of underwear as it did IRL!
Been there….done that….got the “T†shirt!
Bounder ;D
Crikey - I wasn't even competent in a Cessna.... :'( Hee hee!! I'd have a go with a 747 though - at least the pilot position is highter than 'coach', so there'd be a couple of hundred squishier things to bounce on when I rip the LG off. It's the gentry we have to look after and they're in first-class of course! ;D
All I do know Ted is that I'd grown used to the old Spittie FM and am having trouble with the newer 4.10(1) version. I'm sure that it's just getting used to the new version and all that. The old one was so nice and manoeuverable and snuggly though....
I haven't even tried the Seafire!! Eeek! :o
"Waiter - my coat!"
To throw this discussion into reverse, so to speak; last squad I was in had a chappie who flew for Delta in the US who was the most awful (on his own admission) virtual pilot...always landing with gear up or stalling and what have you....his reasoning was he had bells and whistles and gizmos to warn him, or a chap in the other seat to do these things for him.
However we also had some ex-military pilots (one flew Meteors, another was ex-army) who were no better than chaps who had never flown before when staring out in sims & online.
Quote from: =CfC=BlueDog on March 15, 2011, 09:31:42 AM
As an aside, I'm reminded of a thread someone started up on the UbiZoo forum. He was surmising that if he were in a B747 and a Flying High incident occurred whereby the pilots became incapacitated, and the cabin crew in desperation asked if anyone aboard had any flying experience, he would put up his hand because of his gameplay in IL2.
To be quite frank Bluey my hand would be up quick as a flash also. I simply couldn't resist the chance of pushing all those buttons to see what they do, and then there is the excitement of the ensuing flashing lights and alarms.
Atta boy Gizmo!! :D ;D lol
Reminds me of a mister Bean movie!
Ah yes, the 'Aircoach'...the only difference between it and a Scud missile is landing gear.
Actually, I've never flown one but have spent a fair amount of time in the simulator and have found that low-time pilots grasp the fundamentals of flying it fairly quickly as opposed to an older type such as the 767. Still, i think a novice would have a hard time getting one on the ground, especially in IFR conditions. Wouldn't hurt to try though :D.
QuoteTo throw this discussion into reverse, so to speak; last squad I was in had a chappie who flew for Delta in the US who was the most awful (on his own admission) virtual pilot...always landing with gear up or stalling and what have you....his reasoning was he had bells and whistles and gizmos to warn him, or a chap in the other seat to do these things for him.
However we also had some ex-military pilots (one flew Meteors, another was ex-army) who were no better than chaps who had never flown before when staring out in sims & online.
I think we have experienced a similar situation in CFC. What does that tell us?
Getting back to your original thoughts, Ted, I recall another interesting discussion on the IL-2 forums some years ago. Some chappies had coerced Capt Eric "Winkle" Brown to 'fly' IL-2 and give his impressions on its fidelity. He would have been in his mid-80s at the time. As I recall (in my Alzheimistic state) they supplied him with a Saitek X45 and let him do his thing. He complained that aircraft response to controls was too rapid (particularly in roll I think) so he/they played around with the input sliders to find a more representative aircraft response to controls. The end result was to wind back the values to where the max was about 20 at the furthest right slider position (again I'm going by a not-so-good memory). At that point he reckoned the control input and response was about right.
Only problem was, it was only 'right' for that particular point in the flight envelope - which was never mentioned, but probably around cruise speed. You could not take off because elevator authority was far too low and you couldn't compensate for power 'swing' because the rudders couldn't correct.
So, I guess the simple answer to your original question is: probably not.
I'm hoping no-one is going to bring up the thorny question about how representative joysticks are compared to those in a real aircraft.
Quote from: =CfC=BlueDog on March 16, 2011, 05:39:32 AM
I'm hoping no-one is going to bring up the thorny question about how representative joysticks are compared to those in a real aircraft.
Bluey, I think you should go on the 1C and UBI forums and suggest it! :D :D
Gizmo, give me a shout if you need a 747 co-pilot it sounds fun. In the meantime I'll practice getting a 747 out of a flat spin in MSFX!
Oh on a another note, Geoff Wellum is being given the freedom of the city later this month. I'm going to see if I can pop along and see him. I'll let you know how it goes! And now for a day in Insurance!! (Chest swells!)
Toodles!
Badger
Ted….you have opened a right can of worms!
Like Conky, I have spent many hours in simulators and also found that guys coming for flight experience in general have no problems flying around in visual conditions, particularly in the “Aircoachâ€â€¦..with automatic trim, automatic speed control and stall protection, all you have to do is point the machine where you want it to go and release the stick….the software does the rest. Unlike the current Seafire, it is better than a marshmallow at low speeds.
If one of you guys had the benefit of nice weather and a radio link, I’m convinced that you could probably get an Aircoach on the ground by leaving the thrust levers in the “middle/auto†detent (automatic speed control), being told the position of the flap and gear lever and pointing the machine where you want it to go. With vectors to lose speed, all you have to do is flare slightly above the runway and when the auto generated voice calls “Retard….Retardâ€, pull the thrust levers out of auto to idle….it really is that simple!
The 747/other Boeings (don’t know about the semi/auto 777 as I have not flown it) are maybe a different proposition, as the work load would be higher when in manual flight. However, with the benefit of a comms link, the use of the autopilot could be explained in a series of selective button presses (unlike Gizmo’s idea of pressing them all together!). A full auto approach and landing could possibly be achieved with plenty of time to spend. Workload and thus reduced SA is the only reason that this way of achieving a satisfactory result would I think be best and could even be achieved in instrument flight conditions.
It would be great to try this in FSX. With TS comms, I’m convinced that it could be achieved. However, due to restrictions and variations in the PC way of making selections, it would unfortunately require the instructor to know the Flt sim quite well. I would love to try it…..but I have never used and don’t have FSX.
Maybe one day when the novelty of COD wares off, I will download FSX and we could give it a try. I’m sure someone has probably tried this already?
In the end, it is pretty clear that flying a PC is as much a learning curve for someone who has never flown as it is for someone who has flown for a lifetime IRL. On the other hand, to place an IL-2 competent pilot in a real and unfamiliar aircraft would take less time to gain the proficiency necessary for a safe landing….of that I’m convinced as familiarity with simulated flight is a huge advantage.
Bounder ;D
I rather relish the thought of Gizmo putting his hand up and Badger raising a clawed paw as his sidekick. Then, just across the aisle are a couple of FSX devotees, putting their hands up.
"I've got hours and hours on P38s" boasts Gizmo.
"Well, I've got hours and hours on 737s" counters the guy across the aisle.
Both "teams" end up in fisticuffs in the aisle, much to the astonishment and apprehension of the passengers and cabin staff.
Would make a great Monty Python skit. ;D
Quote from: =CfC=BlueDog on March 16, 2011, 05:39:32 AMSome chappies had coerced Capt Eric "Winkle" Brown to 'fly' IL-2 and give his impressions on its fidelity. He would have been in his mid-80s at the time. As I recall (in my Alzheimistic state) they supplied him with a Saitek X45 and let him do his thing. He complained that aircraft response to controls was too rapid...
One thing "Condor" seems to do quite well - flying the K13 is/was like steering a boat - very easy to oscillate from side-to-side as corrections don't seem to do anything initially.
Bounder - are you suggesting you plonk one of us amateurs in front of FSX and then try to talk us through a landing in some humungous airliner? Intriguing...
Actually I think a more direct test of IL2/real life would be having the pilot of a Harvard or some such keel over during a joy ride and seeing if we could bring that in :o
Ted
Quote from: =CfC=BlueDog on March 16, 2011, 10:50:23 AM
"I've got hours and hours on P38s" boasts Gizmo.
He'd just go back to his seat when they explained there wasn't a gun button
Quote from: =CfC=Bounder on March 16, 2011, 10:29:57 AM
Ted….you have opened a right can of worms!
all you have to do is flare slightly above the runway and when the auto generated voice calls “Retard….Retardâ€, pull the thrust levers out of auto to idle….it really is that simple!
Good Heavens, Bounder, you flew an airplane that insulted you every time you flared? Do that to me twice and I'd've smacked it straight into the concrete. That'd show it.
Reminds me of an early 727 I flew. There was a bloody great white arrow painted on the pedestal right in front of the throttles. Of course it pointed forward. Now that's truly simple...minded.
Most certainly Badger, there's enough knobs, levers, twiddly things and stewardesses for both of us and we'd whoop those FSX pussies, target fixation combined with a badger growl would soon see them off.
I think I could accept the no gun button, engaging WEP and staying pointed directly at the target until the screen goes black works for me.
Moving on,, when I was about 16 I persuaded my mother to give me driving lessons, I stalled, kangarooed and eventually juddered over a rather steep 8 ft. bank bringing an end to that. I then progressed onto motorbikes doing the same things but omitting the steep bank until I got the hang of it.
5 or 6 years later I needed to drive four wheels for work and decided to take some lessons. I got into the car and drove it without a single problem passing my test after just a few lessons.
I'd learnt the principles of clutch control and gears etc. and just applied them to a set of different controls.
Now I hear you saying a bike or car is hardly an aeroplane and this is true but I will recount my next tale nontheless...
My only RL flying experience other than as a passenger was a lesson my lady bought for me as a birthday present. My mate had done the same previously and said he got to hold the yoke for a few minutes and other than that it was a local sightseeing trip.
So I arrived at the local airfield not really expecting much and Ivan, the instructor, in a very strong Russian accent asked why I was interested in flying. I explained some details about IL-2 and we then sat down with a model plane and went through what causes things to happen.
Once in the plane I taxied to the runway where he then took off. As we got clear of the field he says we want to be at such and such an altitude and heading toward a town off to our 2 o'clock. You take over.
I was flying. Levelled out, adjusted the throttle and after reaching the town followed a road for a while before heading to another town off the left wing tip. On the way there he let me play with the trim wheel and throttle seeing how the plane reacted.
He took over again to show me a very tight 360 turn, which I then copied and we headed back toward the airfield where he took over again to land.
I was mindful of treating the controls gently, it was hot with some turbulence and had to double think rudder use because I use a twist stick. If I used rudder pedals at home I think take off would be possible and with guidance landing a distinct possibility.
Summarising........like going from the bike to the car I knew what to do to get the response I wanted so I believe IL-2 does give a good grounding for flying a real plane though another lesson might be in order before I seriously took over that 747.
I am quite confused by all this flying talk - forinstance:
Quote from: =CfC=Bounder on March 16, 2011, 10:29:57 AM...when the auto generated voice calls “Retard….Retardâ€...
Is this when the aircraft realises you are an IL-2 Sim pilot and not a real one?
:D
:D :D :D I cought that too!!
Hey Bounder, I bought the condenced version of FXS by mistake a few years ago,
if you want it, e-mail me.
Buzz
Ted, You are right....a pilot incapacitation in a Harvard would be most appropriate....know someone who would let you do it??
Buz....I might just do that....when UP3.0 + all the missions are re-built + COD fishing becomes tedious.......I may take the plunge!
Farber....As far as I know the French (who after all built the Aircoach) liked the term "Retard" which comes from the French verb "Retarder" which also means "to be retired" which is most appropriate!
If you have not heard the auto generated calls from 100feet RA during a landing, click on the link below:- (the squawk at the beginning is the autopilot disconnect warning)
http://www.hark.com/clips/tmpsbzzckb-a320-50-30-20-retard-retard (http://www.hark.com/clips/tmpsbzzckb-a320-50-30-20-retard-retard)
Bounder ;D
I kept hearing a "Farber you retard!" warning in my cockpit but after asking my Staffel it turns out its just Homuth shouting at me.
Quote from: 5./JG27Farber on March 16, 2011, 08:52:28 PM
I kept hearing a "Farber you retard!" warning in my cockpit but after asking my Staffel it turns out its just Homuth shouting at me.
To use an oft-abused acronym LOL! I really did, especially at Woof's post. I don't think I'll be attempting any landings at Fifi's or post co-op for a while...
Gizmo, your tale illustrates a point I was trying to make to someone at M4T. Rather than demonstrating that IL2 is a good primer for RL, maybe your experience is a result of you (much as I hate to massage a fellow Chuffolite's ego) having a talent for such things? Not that IL2, or any decent sim, wouldn't give someone a head start in real flying, but there is a natural ability factor involved in any physical activity, and some people are better than others
Ted
Fear not Ted, unlike my nose, ears and stomach my ego can't possibly get any bigger ::) and I do have the knack of watching someone do something once and being able to go away and do it myself.
It would've been interesting to have taken that lesson before IL-2 to compare.
And since that is the limit of my experience and I'm getting confused thinking about it I'll confine myself to flippant remarks and smiling inwardly at the fun I could bring to 500 souls aboard a large fast moving jet plane. ;D
There is an old joke about how you can tell the difference between a new Aircoach pilot and an experienced one:
The new chap will ask: why is the airplane doing that?
The experienced one will say: Oh, it's doing it again...
Speaking of the 777, it will trim itself but the fly-by-wire system is not as 'hands-off' as the Aircoach's, it will give you nose-up/down cues so i end up trimming anyway when I hand-bomb it. That said, the 777 is very stable while remaining enjoyably responsive. It even makes me look like I know what I'm doing! :D
Pip, pip,
Conky
Fine Chaps, allow me to indulge myself further:
After success at the Tiger Woods ProAM, Bluey's next dream is to perform brain surgery.
I've imagined myself passing (by serendipitous happenstance) a craniosurgery unit when a distressed nurse flings open the door and cries: "Quick, we've got emergency brain surgery in progress and the surgeon has suddenly developed St Vitus's Dance. He can't do a thing with his hands. We need someone to perform the surgery under his direction."
"Does anyone here have experience using a power drill?" she asks.
My hand shoots up immediately. I look around and there's a bunch of Americans, each with his hand up.
"Does anyone here have experience using a tenon saw?"
My hand shoots up again. Looking around, each of the Americans has his hand up too.
"Does anyone here have experience using a table knife?"
Again my hand shoots up in a flash. I look around and I'm the only one with a hand up. ;D
Anyway, I'm still thinking about those porn starlets.
Bluey, you're bloody hilarious! ;D ;D ;D
Hmmmm, flying big shiny things, stewardesses, and porn starlets. Sounds like my kind of weekend.
eeerr....whats a table knife? ???
Quote from: =CFC=Buzzsaw on March 17, 2011, 01:35:27 PM
eeerr....whats a table knife? ???
I believe you chaps use them to dig up fishing bait.
When are we going to get to shoot at you again Buzz :)
Good question Buddy!
I want to join you guys so bad it hurts, I really miss it!
computer probs, funds and time.
Now that we know the important item.....the table knife.......here are the flying instructions to read before you get into the Aircoach by clicking on the link below:-
1) Take left or right seat.......just for Ted as you are left handed....we will allow you to sit in God's seat on the left.
2) Stick....the thing on the left/right with just one red button....don't press it. Pull to make houses smaller....push to make them bigger. There is nothing where the yoke normally appears apart from a retractable lunch tray and two "grunt" foot rests for pile sufferers.
3) Rudder pedals....ignore them as they are not needed except for a crosswind. Brakes are Saitek/CH compatible on pedals
4) Nose-wheel steering....lever thing near window.
5) Throttles (they are called thrust levers!)....leave the darn things in the middle detent and don't touch them until "Retard" call.
6) Flap lever ....lever on the pedestal that says.....you guessed it "Flaps".
7) Gear lever....right forward panel and has arrows pointing up or down (complicated!). In case you cannot read....it has a wheel on the end of the lever!
8) To fly....point nose in the direction you want to go (in-flight map has all icons switched "on" and you are represented in the middle of the map.
9) To land, point at runway and place flap lever to middle detent. If the wings are still there, grab the gear lever (once again shaped like a wheel) and select it.....you guessed "down". When the runway markings are visible, place the flap lever to "landing flap".
10) Flare when the man calls "20" and pull the thrust levers to the fully retarded position when the man says "Retard".
11) Use Saitek/CH/Aircoach brake pedals to stop.
Now get into the darn thing and don't touch anything else:-
http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm (http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm)
Retire to Fifi's and boast about it.
Bounder ;D
PS Next.....guide to the breast implant surgery simulator.
Hey Bounder, where's the bloody needle, ball and airspeed?
I found the balls Woof, ;D but boy do those old style instruments look out of place in a lunar lander!
I'm trying to figure out what those levers are under the side windows Bounder.
are they for turbulance? and if so, do you here a whooosshh? ;D
Woof....turn and slip no longer exist ....but if you look at the Horizon display, you will see a "o" at the bottom. This is radio altitude...but if you lose an engine you get a sort of slip indicator instead. It does not really show slip, but the optimum position of rudder input with about 2-degrees of bank into the live engines to get the best rate of climb with an engine out....things have moved on!
Buz....the half wheel thing to the left/right of the stick is the nose-wheel steering. Above that is a huge lever to open the DV window. This is the usual escape route if the guy behind you has his pants on fire. Unfortunately, like many aircraft with this system, you lose your manhood on the pitot tubes on the way down to the tarmac! However, BD tells me that Matron will fix that for any CH chaps that arrive in the surgery with a high pitched voice!
Bounder ;D
So... its harder than IL-2 and there are exam's AND you could lose your genitals?!!? No thanks...
I couldn't help noticing the placard in center of the First Officers panel:
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc53/Sillius_Sodus/Sk5oX.jpg)
We had stickers on the FE's panel that simply said: DFWI!
This has been confirmed on the Net in a "Times of India" publication dated 13th. March 2011.
Don't get any ideas chaps......the IL-2 licence won't wash it seems!
See here:-
-----------------------------------
By Rick Westhead South Asia Bureau
NEW DELHIâ€"For more than a decade on at least 6,500 flights, Air India captain J. K. Verma welcomed passengers aboard and invited them to sit back and relax as he flew them to destinations across this expansive and fast-growing nation.
This week, Verma, who has flown for Air India since 1989, was exposed as a fraudster who obtained his job with India’s national carrier thanks to a forged commercial pilot’s licence that police say he bought for about $26,000.
But what’s even more shocking and alarming than Verma’s prolonged scam is that he may not be the only fraudster at the controls of a jumbo jet.
Police have arrested three other fake commercial pilots in recent weeks, and are on the hunt for a fifth.
There may be many more. Authorities say they are combing through the records of 4,000 pilots employed by airlines here.
The scandal kicked off when Captain Parminder Kaur Gulati damaged the nose wheel of an Airbus A-320 while landing on Jan. 11 in Goa, India.
An investigation revealed Gulati, a 38-year-old pilot with a no-frills airline called Indigo, had repeatedly landed in that manner, but her actions hadn’t been disclosed to airline regulators.
Following the investigation, it was discovered that Gulati’s papers were forged.
Police have also accused at least three Jet Airways pilots and two SpiceJet pilots using fraudulent documents to secure a commercial pilot’s licence.
The fake pilots scam is the latest bit of sour news to drag down India’s surging but turbulent aviation industry, and it underscores the growing pains of a country that’s struggling to keep pace with demand for new airline routes even as it grapples with pressing problems like child malnutrition and the lack of proper sanitation.
The number of domestic air passengers in India has increased three-fold over the past five years to 50 million in 2010, industry analysts say. Airlines, which are operating on knife-thin margins, are struggling to ensure safety regulations are met.
Dilip Cherian, an official with Perfect Relations, a management consulting firm in New Delhi whose clients have included Jet Airways and Air India, called news of the arrests “frightening†and said the scandal’s roots may lie in “lax governance and a market which exploded with growth.â€
Cherian said creating an electronically maintained roster of pilot licences and exam results might help to restore public confidence in the airlines.
After an Air India flight last May crashed in southern India, killed 158 people, authorities said the accident was due to pilot error. The Boeing 737 overshot a hilltop runway in Mangalore, one of India’s trickiest airports, on the southwestern coast, and the pilot may not have had enough training.
Many viewed the Air India crash as an isolated incident â€" until Gulati’s arrest sparked a flurry of questions over how qualified pilots here really are.
Following Gulati’s arrest, news channels were abuzz with the sensational disclosure earlier this month that 57 commercial pilots were found last year to have been drunk when they arrived for duty. While none were allowed into the cockpit after failing a breathalyzer, only 11 were fired.
Jet Airlines, a Star Alliance partner of Air Canada, which operates flights from India to Canada through Brussels, had 23 drunken pilots â€" tops among Indian airlines. None of those Jet pilots were fired, according to a statement released by aviation minister Vayalar Ravi.
Air India, which is the only Indian airline to operate a direct non-stop flight to Toronto, discovered six drunken pilots last year. None were fired.
The scandal seems far from over.
Just this week, the case of Arjun Giare has surfaced.
Giare, also a pilot for Air India, reportedly was caught with fake documents related to his pilot’s licence and suspended from flying in 2000 by the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority. But he subsequently returned to India and got another job with the national carrier.
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Happy flying chaps.....are you planning a holiday to India?
Reminds me of an old airline joke:-
Around the old Bombay airport were many slum dwellers. After landing one day…….a venerable old Captain of an undisclosed airline found a chap making piles of manure by the side of the taxiway. There were two piles….a small one and a slightly larger one.
“I say, what are the piles for†asked the Captain.
“Little mountain is Flt engineer Sahib….and bigger one is First Officerâ€.
“And where is the Captain†said his Lordship.
“Not enough shxx to make Captain Sahib!â€
Bounder ;D :D
This might be the appropriate moment to introduce this fine fecking film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPyl2tOaKxM&feature=player_embedded